DJ-Delinquent 2009-12-04 15:46:12

Fuck Rucklo

Mich 2009-12-04 16:00:08

Rucklo just does things according to NG's rules, which you agree to by submitting to NG.

MindChamber 2009-12-04 16:16:32

whats bandcamp? and if its just a matter of not using samples, why just not use them? I believe any producer worth their weight can create fresh samples.

also, ya'll dont know how much we get hounded for this shit. if the record companies ever decided to rain down on our parade it could be the end of NG as we know it.

GAT-X3000 2009-12-05 07:30:58

Shit man, that really sucks...
I mean I just discovered you like 2 weeks ago and here you are banned from the audio portal, life was harsh on ya man...
For sure I'll try to keep track of ya, I might send you an e-mail from time to time to see what your up to an all...
I hope your not the first of many illegal samplers that are gonna get banned around here, that would suck big time... =P And the funny thing is, you samplers are just a small part of the illegal action going on here on NG. Think about the guys using OSTs without permission on their flash, and all the things like that.
Life is harsh, that' all... But just make sure you keep doing your music man.

GX3

InGenius 2009-12-05 18:04:19

Nice. I am going to go to Chronamut's page to see if he got banned for obvious midi ripping. Wait. I don't need to, I know the answer to that. Fuck the bullshit, NG's mods and admins can't even get our fucking profit sharing right and force Flash authors who use CC licensed music in f-rprofit games and movies to pay the audio artists. What business do they have suddenly deciding to enforce one rule when they have never enfored the other 1.5 million that comes with the site:

- CC license expressly disallows for-profit usage of music without renegotiating licensing
- Midi rips are illegal since video game music is expressly copywritten
- Covers are illegal if used in a for-profit manner without publishing license
- Remixes are illegal without mechanical rights, publishing license and possibly even artist negotiations, depending on ownership of publiching and copyright
- Flash authors still use copywritten mainstream music in close to 50% of all flash with audio, and if you add sound effects from games (which are also copywritten) the % is even higher
- Even the sprites from games are copywritten art, which not a single person yet has been banned for using, yet here were are banning for sampled music that is chopped up and used in original audio?

But isn't it nice how only sample based music is getting the ban stick? Nice to know mods and admins are as worthless around here as an asshole on your elbow.

When I submitted I agreed that the music I uploaded was my own, original work. The wording of the agreement is so flexible that anything could be considered my own, original work and at the same time, nothing could. Every chord, progression, melody and harmony, if broken into phrases, has been used before. In some genres, even the combination of melody, counter-melody, harmony, and progressions are just about exhausted. So, nothing is "original". Therefore, the entire agreement is invalid by it's very nature.

Add to that the fact that everytime this sample vs. rules lawyer nonsense gets started again, the mods, admins, and the sycophants who have their lips placed firmly on the asscheeks of the "cognoscenti" (and I mean that sarcastically since the vast majority of mods here couldn't tell me what any country's copyright law actually states, what the court precedent for samples, derivatives and covers is, or any of the particulars concerning copyright). So...basically, NG's portals fail on so many fronts.

It's downright tempting to turn over the gigs and gigs of data that all of us have on our systems to the RIAA and see if they go after the artists sampling old Cole Porter, or the Flash artists downright ripping off music from limewire. Maybe hand off the data to Sony Music Entertainment, who holds much of the publishing rights to OST's, including the midi rips of said, and see if they go after the people sampling three string stabs from an album, or the people with "To Zanarkand" midi ripped on their page. I know who my money is on because I know what the court considers a more heinous and more easily proven copyright infringement, and it isn't the sampling of stabs and Blue Note records.

MindChamber 2009-12-05 19:04:11

well Im glad you know the rules. Kinda sucks that you took advantage of it though. and now after having two years of exposure and plenty of fans, you basically Dis NG in general by taking this orginal content you are now creating to another site?

eh whatever.

as for what InGenius said , its pretty much on the money, all I can say to that, is we are trying to provide a place for you musicians to shine, but at the same time covering our asses . It isnt always a perfect process, but we are trying.

WadeFulp 2009-12-06 18:54:37

Yun, we were listing users who had entires that were in violation of our rules and handing out bans. We have reviewed your case and would like to give you the chance to submit your new work as long as it is original. I will see what Tom would like to do with your older entries, but for now I have put them back.

Blasphem-E 2009-12-06 18:55:54

mindchamber, you completely missed the argument. You are just as liable for the hundreds of midi rips on this site as you are for sampled hip hop.

MindChamber 2009-12-06 19:28:41

Wyze-Stingray
you probably think I missed the argument , but thats because I wasnt arguing. I was agreeing, and I still feel we do what we can, we're a small group of admins and mods here. we try to handle all this shit on almost a case by case bases. we are fully aware of the midi rips btw, but we try and handle what gets us in the hottest water first.

also we aren't liable. you guys are, you check box saying your shit is original, if you lie its your asses not ours,but unlike other sites who could give a fuck about their users we actually try and work with you guys. half the time we get shittin on for it too, by the same people we try to help no less, but hey thats what makes NG different.

Theres a reason why your shit is here and not on other sites.

Blasphem-E 2009-12-06 19:29:38

My apologies, I misunderstood your comment then.

BigRed 2009-12-07 04:19:00

My two cents:

YunVeroz is a serious asset to Newgrounds. If there exists any dream of building the audio portal you need to support people like Yun. He is damn good at what he does and well known as one of NG's top hip hop producers. Yes, this is a sticky issue, but you cannot turn your back on this kind of talent!

Even the worst flash movies get more views than most well received audio submissions. That is where you guys are going to run into trouble. If NG seriously wants to cover their asses you need to work on getting copyrighted music out of flash submissions and pushing the audio portal to animators. You have bigger fish to fry than obscure hip hop samples.

InGenius 2009-12-07 12:01:21

Make no mistake, I am not claiming that sampling is not illegal...in certain forms. When you do it for promotional purposes only, though, the precedent is very clear over the last 20 years: no profit and no detraction from the ability of the original artist to make profit and the court says it's not a problem. But that's the core issue, the artists aren't making profit from these songs and if they are/were, the CC licensing is null and void in the first place. So, by design of the site itself, there is this double standard created where we can't make profit, we don't make profit, only the ownership makes profit, and yet we are punished for their profit? It's extremely lopsided when compared to the repeated claims that the site admins and ownership is looking out for us.

That said, I have to admit this is the first time anyone other than forum mods has taken an interest in an audio portal user leaving because of a ban which floors me. I haven't seen Wade comment on anything audio related since '05's "This is what we're going to unveil for you, the Audio Portal!" post............which has never come to fruition. I think in the long run, that's the point of this whole thing. Everything the AP should be, it has never become. I don't know if it's because the admins are overwhelmed by managing a popular and unwieldy site's daily ins and outs, or if it's merely apathy towards everything that isn't the original Flash portal, but even the Art Portal has been improved upon and worked on more than the AP in the last 4 years. I think we're all pretty much disregarding NG's rules because we are feeling pretty disregarded down here in the AP.

TomFulp 2009-12-07 14:43:37

I am unable to comment on the state of the Audio Portal without throwing anyone under the bus, so all I'll say is we have attempted to make improvements in the past and those improvements never came to fruition, but we will be attempting again in 2010.

Axier 2009-12-08 00:39:29

Banned? waTha fukk!!!?!!!

Look, I'm pretty sure most if not all of your samples fit within the few laws that effect these few things. Most of it sounds nothing like the originals, and the originals IMHO are usually so old they don't even make any money for their owners...

Seriously, this is some fucked up shit and you should find some admin and slap them around verbally with intelligence and eloquence so you can look at their obviously dumb ass faces. Will be following your bandcamp.com thing.

I don't do Facebook, as I hate it with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. I wish Facebook would die a slow, painful death. I pray to any form of higher being immortal or mortal to destroy them with unbelievable fury. I will start a church completely based on the theory that Jesus already hates Facebook, and then take its founder(s) and subsequently crucify them. I would prefer to bleed to death over the period of a month while being barely kept alive in the most deplorable situation conceivable than put up with Facebook. I would have homosexual intercourse before enjoying Facebook. If I was stranded on an island with a laptop that could only access Facebook, and I have nothing else to do besides deserted island stuff, I would dismantle the laptop to make a fire starting system. I would rather fall down from the highest peak of Everest in the exact way to hit and grind the side of the mountain the most, from the very top to the very bottom, before having a Facebook account. Would rather drown. Would rather be emo. Would rather put up with a boring life where everything is save, but subsequently boring as hell than even be within 2 feet of someone on Facebook. I would rather kill myself the slowest way possible. Prefer to be in a black hole. I would rather be in hell.

I detest, loathe, curse, hold great distant for, and unbelievably hate Facebook.

P-Balla 2009-12-08 01:10:30

Lets just ban all of Hip Hop NG. Chances are almost every Hip Hop artist on this portal has submitted a track containing samples.

YunVeroz 2009-12-08 11:45:39

Damn, this shit blew up! Cameos from the Wu-Fulp Clan? Damn.

Now to sound all proper and fancy (ahem):
I appreciate both the support and the challenging viewpoints from my audio portal colleagues. If anything, I'm flattered that this situation has warranted this much attention from people. I think it's important to stress that I have no ill will towards Newgrounds, its moderators or administrators; I think it's a pretty damn good website and I've learned a hell of a lot here.

As MindChamber stated, yes I checked the box that states that what I submit is original work. And I stand by that statement: what I've submitted here in the past have been nothing but original compositions of my own, often sampling 2 to 3 different records at a time, chopping them up and rearranging them to where they deviate a decent amount from the original records. (I guess the exception here is "Saturday Morning Funk," which I swear to god if someone says I ripped off DangerDoom I will eat their children. Yes, Danger Mouse and I sampled the same record. I hadn't even listened to that album yet when I made that beat.)

Regarding legalities, I have NEVER made ANY profits from this musical adventure of mine. If anything, I've LOST money: I've spent at least $300 on vinyl this year alone, and around ~$700 on studio gear in the past 2 years. So ~$1000 has been invested, and $0 has been made. Needless to say, I'm a full-time college student with a part-time job, and definitely could've used this money in better and wiser ways. But as I've told many of my colleagues, my work has, and never will be, about the money. It is about me experiencing the joy of being able to make art from old records, music that people may have never had the opportunity to hear, and sharing that joy with others.

Furthermore, if Newgrounds or the people who hold the copyrights on the records I've sampled feel wronged by my compositions, I will be more than happy to discuss some kind of payment plan for monetary restitution. Granted, it'll take a while to pay up, as my income is minimum wage and part-time, and I've made $0 from all my beats. I would also be more than happy to testify for all of this, should legal action be taken (though personally I think this would be a frivolous use of otherwise valuable court time).

Ultimately, I think this has been a learning experience for all of us. The lines dividing sampling and original compositions remain blurry, sure, but I think in general it would be irresponsible to not help sharpen them. I'd be more than happy to contribute, to be used as a test case, etc. for any progress that can be made in this matter.

XOXO,
Gossip Gir-- er.. Yun.

InGenius 2009-12-08 14:45:32

Civil precedent says you're in the green on your samples, Yun, so there's very little worry that you could end up in litigation for promotional, non-profit sampling.

And thank you Tom and Wade for giving us a bit of your time. I hope these points are discussed more and the AP ends up having some time devoted to improvements in the future.

Jirohbomb 2009-12-08 18:59:37

I think there should be some rule for samplers primarily in Hip Hop. Maybe to state all your samples being used. Or maybe to make it so original that the sample isn't noticeable. I know with Yun, sounding better than the original is easy for him, but other samplers should add some creativity besides a drum beat. That's my opinion.

DJ-Delinquent 2009-12-09 02:15:21

I wonder whos Next Lol

JazLyte 2009-12-09 02:17:53

Damn man, you think my cartoon got them inspecting your shit? Ouch... They better reverse this shit, there are people on here who upload "mixtape tracks" with them spittin the instrumentals to licensed music that's fairly recent, fuck this. I didn't think it'd get you that kind of pub